老地方冰果室交流區

randysync 寫: 所以你說道：非常好奇基督徒心裡的基督叫到底是什麼樣子？我想，我可以回答你：他是神，但他不是給我存款、順利工作、漂亮老婆的神，但他是愛我，更新我生命的一位神。

whindang 寫: 把那四部福音書奉為圭臬，就完全接近耶穌想要告訴世人的？
不好意思～ 我真的沒有想要質疑什麼，只是看了些報導，非常好奇基督徒心裡的基督叫到底是什麼樣子？

Watcher! 寫:聽到Discovery裡提到“福音“意味“good news"，原有近三十部，卻被當時的“主流“為了意識之爭，留下四部最通俗好懂的福音書，其他一概摒除！
...........這和遍殺異教徒有什麼不同？

Watcher! 寫:聽到Discovery裡提到“福音“意味“good news"，原有近三十部，卻被當時的“主流“為了意識之爭，留下四部最通俗好懂的福音書，其他一概摒除！
...........這和遍殺異教徒有什麼不同？

randysync 寫:¨Ï®{¦æ¶Ç°O¸ü¤F«D±`¦hÂå¯f»°°­ªº¨Æ±¡¡A¤@ª½¨ì²{¦b°ò·þ®{»E·|¤¤ÁÙ¬O±`µo¥Íªº¡A¦ý³o¨Ç¬O¤£«Hªº¤H«Ü¤£·Q¬Ý¨ìªº

Gooch 寫:

randysync 寫:使徒行傳記載了非常多醫病趕鬼的事情，一直到現在基督徒聚會中還是常發生的，但這些是不信的人很不想看到的

這些事不信的人應該是非常想看到吧？

randysync 寫:信仰必須是主觀經歷的才會堅固，如果是知識道理，其實很容易流於討論，然後無疾而終。

很多人會求平安符，是因為主觀經歷了他們所拜的保佑他們。

如果沒有經歷過，只是跟著拜，「求心安」，那也OK，但這信仰，對人的價值，就是停留在「求心安」的謹慎觀望階段。

但如果基督的愛，真的讓人經歷到了「神愛世人」的內在主觀經歷，那對信徒來說就是堅固的。甚至看到其中的價值大到面對羅馬人的屠殺都能不改信仰。

在耶穌之後的新約聖經裡，有一非常重要的關鍵角色，叫做聖靈，照著聖經，聖靈是耶穌死後復活，升天說「see you later」後所產生的。聖靈看不到，聞不到，聽不到，但可以經歷的到（使徒行傳記載了非常多醫病趕鬼的事情，一直到現在基督徒聚會中還是常發生的，但這些是不信的人很不想看到的）。聖靈是基督徒所主觀經歷的「內住的基督」，那是愛的力量，經歷患難的倚靠，以及安息喜樂的保證。所以，去問基督徒，他們都對聖靈有或多或少的主觀經歷，這也是他們能堅信的重要憑藉。

為什麼猶太人如此反對耶穌基督？因為照著舊約，猶太人的確在等待一位「基督」拯救世人，但他們預期的「救主」，是華冠尊容的樣子，所以他們無法接受木匠的兒子耶穌就是救世主（聖經有寫，耶穌長的很抱歉）（所以，那些把耶穌畫成、雕刻成留落腮鬍的六塊腹肌健美中東帥哥畫像、十字架都是幻想出來的錯誤印象），一直到現在，猶太人在某一個節日的晚上，會集體打燈籠上街，代表他們還在尋找救世主！

那些寫聖經的，編彙，整理的人，都是基督信徒，他們所做的事，當然來自於聖靈-耶穌基督的親自指導，所以聖經才能從殘破、流落各處的書信，變成一部經的起普世人接受、深入的信仰經典，

耶穌基督沒有什麼秘密是隱藏起來的，聖經寫得很清楚，一切的奧秘，都已經藉著基督的話打開了，都是攤在陽光下的，不論是末世的預表、啟示，還是天國（新耶路撒冷）的長相，在聖經裡都寫白了，只是人們要不要相信而已。

現在的耶穌，對基督徒來說，是又真又活的，聖經說「我雖不見他，卻是信他」的原因就在此。

我呢，我從國一開始抽煙，混無賴，高中玩樂團，混PUB，大學酗酒，嗑E呼麻，五年前主觀遇到這位主，我的人生開始改變，變清爽，變光明，變正面，變喜樂，所以過程中我學習看聖經，也樂於把我信的主推薦給別人。

所以你說道：非常好奇基督徒心裡的基督叫到底是什麼樣子？我想，我可以回答你：他是神，但他不是給我存款、順利工作、漂亮老婆的神，但他是愛我，更新我生命的一位神。

whindang 寫: 把那四部福音書奉為圭臬，就完全接近耶穌想要告訴世人的？

不好意思～ 我真的沒有想要質疑什麼，只是看了些報導，非常好奇基督徒心裡的基督叫到底是什麼樣子？

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為什麼猶太人如此反對耶穌基督？因為照著舊約，猶太人的確在等待一位「基督」拯救世人，但他們預期的「救主」，是華冠尊容的樣子，所以他們無法接受木匠的兒子耶穌就是救世主（聖經有寫，耶穌長的很抱歉）（所以，那些把耶穌畫成、雕刻成留落腮鬍的六塊腹肌健美中東帥哥畫像、十字架都是幻想出來的錯誤印象），一直到現在，猶太人在某一個節日的晚上，會集體打燈籠上街，代表他們還在尋找救世主!

DJYANG 寫:

為什麼猶太人如此反對耶穌基督？因為照著舊約，猶太人的確在等待一位「基督」拯救世人，但他們預期的「救主」，是華冠尊容的樣子，所以他們無法接受木匠的兒子耶穌就是救世主（聖經有寫，耶穌長的很抱歉）（所以，那些把耶穌畫成、雕刻成留落腮鬍的六塊腹肌健美中東帥哥畫像、十字架都是幻想出來的錯誤印象），一直到現在，猶太人在某一個節日的晚上，會集體打燈籠上街，代表他們還在尋找救世主!

猶太信徒和基督信徒間的互動就和印度教徒和佛教徒之間一樣，只是前兩者間"激烈"了些(或者說是第二者)。與其說"反對"，不如說是缺少溝通下造成的誤解。其他我就不多說了，反正近代西方歷史書上已經寫很多了。

有些東西是"道聽途說"，以訛傳訛得來的。這段對"猶太人"的描述已經超出"聖經"的"靈修"範圍。我女友是猶太人，所以知道一些"另一邊"的說法，我只能說這段描述只是基督徒"選擇性"的自我臆測，甚至是偏見。不完全是謊話，但也不完全是事實。

兩千年前少部份人所作的事卻造成以偏概全的對單一種族的偏見，這....

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信者恆信，不信者恆不信。我不是基督教信徒，如同前頭一位朋友說的，我也是對各方不同說法有興趣，但是即使聽了不利基督信仰的說法也不代表我因此就不尊重基督教這信仰。我只管"人"。我遇過很好很好的基督信徒，也遇過很爛很爛的基督信徒。一個信仰基督教的人不會"自動"的就變成"好人"，同樣的，"好人"裡頭也不全都是基督信徒。

Gooch 寫:

ross_tt 寫: 其實不信的人，就算讓他看到聚會中有人行神蹟，他也會說是演戲。
不過若是真的讓他體驗一次，他的心靈會感受到相當大的震撼。

重點就在於怎樣叫神蹟？一群人在那邊嚷嚷著自己看到了神蹟卻無法使他人認同，這只能說是自慰。
宗教本身就有邏輯上的陷阱，自己爽爽就好，不需要張揚。

whindang 寫:酷～
真是厲害～ 大家都好理性的討論這個問題！
我想，每個人都活了不少年歲了，或多或少都受過些宗教的影響，不管你願不願意，也或多或少都思考過這個問題，甚至是作過比較，當然我覺得比較宗教間的差異很有趣，比較好壞則不太好玩，不過，看到大家能夠如此冷靜的討論這些問題真是高興，沒有出現互相攻擊的現象，也無須管理者出來喊話，實在有點出我意料之外～ ，看來大家年紀都不小了﹍

Mr. Mansfiled 寫:John, thanks for your reply--and for not calling me "extreme" this time

The reason that the Gospel of Judas does not warrant inclusion into the New Testament is because the New Testament canon is closed. This is a matter of theology and history. Even if it were determined that the Gospel of Judas was written in the first century, it still would not qualify for inclusion into the NT. The early church had certain litmus tests for what was chosen to stand alongside the Hebrew Scriptures as sacred canon. This included whether or not a document was written by an apostle or at least had access to apostolic witness. Also there was the issue of whether or not the early church viewed a writing as authoritative and bearing the marks of being inspired by the Holy Spirit.

There are NT references to other writings that aren't in our New Testament. There's at least one other letter written by Paul to the Corinthians. There is a letter he wrote to the Laodiceans. But even if we found these letters, they wouldn't warrant inclusion into the New Testament because they were rejected by the early church as being authoritative and inspired. And there are dozens of other writings by Christians, even much earlier than the Gospel of Judas that did not make it into the New Testament. Consider the Shepherd of Hermas, the Didache, the Epistle of Barnabas. Although these are edifying reading, they are not considered inspired or authoritative.

But I'll agree with you that the gospel of Judas is interesting. I've probably downplayed that fact in reaction to all the unnecessary hype that the document is receiving.

And I agree with you that it should be studied further. But I believe it should be studied for what it is--a representative of 3rd/4th century Gnostic writings, not a contender for a fifth gospel in the New Testament.

Thanks for posting my reply. Feel free to post this if you want, or if you feel it's unnecessary don't worry about it.

And as of this writing, it's a little past midday here

Rick

fuigo 寫:Mr. Mansfield has responded to my message and I shall post it here again. Thanks.

Mr. Mansfiled 寫:John, thanks for your reply--and for not calling me "extreme" this time

The reason that the Gospel of Judas does not warrant inclusion into the New Testament is because the New Testament canon is closed. This is a matter of theology and history. Even if it were determined that the Gospel of Judas was written in the first century, it still would not qualify for inclusion into the NT. The early church had certain litmus tests for what was chosen to stand alongside the Hebrew Scriptures as sacred canon. This included whether or not a document was written by an apostle or at least had access to apostolic witness. Also there was the issue of whether or not the early church viewed a writing as authoritative and bearing the marks of being inspired by the Holy Spirit.

There are NT references to other writings that aren't in our New Testament. There's at least one other letter written by Paul to the Corinthians. There is a letter he wrote to the Laodiceans. But even if we found these letters, they wouldn't warrant inclusion into the New Testament because they were rejected by the early church as being authoritative and inspired. And there are dozens of other writings by Christians, even much earlier than the Gospel of Judas that did not make it into the New Testament. Consider the Shepherd of Hermas, the Didache, the Epistle of Barnabas. Although these are edifying reading, they are not considered inspired or authoritative.

But I'll agree with you that the gospel of Judas is interesting. I've probably downplayed that fact in reaction to all the unnecessary hype that the document is receiving.

And I agree with you that it should be studied further. But I believe it should be studied for what it is--a representative of 3rd/4th century Gnostic writings, not a contender for a fifth gospel in the New Testament.

Thanks for posting my reply. Feel free to post this if you want, or if you feel it's unnecessary don't worry about it.

And as of this writing, it's a little past midday here

Rick

whindang 寫: 不好意思，他是那位阿？ 而且看起來您似乎跟他『溝通』過了﹍

fuigo 寫:對這裡的人有點信心好不好呀?

哈哈阿哈哈啊哈

fuigo

whindang 寫:酷～
真是厲害～ 大家都好理性的討論這個問題！
我想，每個人都活了不少年歲了，或多或少都受過些宗教的影響，不管你願不願意，也或多或少都思考過這個問題，甚至是作過比較，當然我覺得比較宗教間的差異很有趣，比較好壞則不太好玩，不過，看到大家能夠如此冷靜的討論這些問題真是高興，沒有出現互相攻擊的現象，也無須管理者出來喊話，實在有點出我意料之外～ ，看來大家年紀都不小了﹍